It's one of the areas that we do differentiate ourselves, and it's something that we have built up over the last 10 years. So we are in over 45 countries at the moment, representing 45 countries, and what's significant about that is we've worked on obtaining various bank connections. So we've got over 13,000 bank connections over these 45 countries. And that's significant, in other words for some of the global clients that we've signed up, so when you move to a global client, and they want to use open banking, that richness of data over to three countries that don't necessarily have to start from scratch, and especially if they've partnered with a global decisioning provider decision system provider, we can then facilitate the same relationship and agreement across various countries. So that's something we worked very hard on doing.

So it's not just UK-based.

It's a good point that you make because I think that that's a very key differentiation. Alternatives will make money by consumers not paying, we make money by consumers payng us back. It's about using it in the correct fashion -customer defaulting, right, we're not making interest, we're not compounding that interest. So for us, it is ensuring that the customer remains within their spending limit, budgeting properly and using the platform in a responsible manner. In that way, our our vision and what's what's healthy for the consumer is very much in line.

So I think in the beginning of this business, we realised that we have to put in some real time in order to prove that with potential customers. So we've been at it for just slightly over two years. And we're able to not only back tests from source data, but actually test or run our models on real data.

And the results have been quite impressive, if I say so myself, we're happy with that confidence of 86%. We do provide then a boolean results where you know, it's a Yay or Nay, We realise we don't want to reinvent the wheel with another score that one has to contend with.

and I just said, from my perspective, as someone who used to leave her credit reports - once I finally got the courage to even request a credit report - on the counter for weeks, because I was too scared to even open it.

And what I'm hearing on the flip side is that there's just not enough education around what lending even means, or what interest rates even are, or how that affects you.

I just did a segment for Good Morning America, where I was breaking down interest rates, and they said, 'oh, we didn't know that just because interest rates go up on credit cards, it's not all bad. It also goes up at the bank, that's cool'.

So Simon talked a little bit earlier about us being impact focused since day one, and our pivot to our expansion into this HR space has expanded that value to include the actual employer. So we know that employees have this issue with cash flow, and that on demand pay can help them a lot. And we need the employer on board in order to do that, we have to go through the employer. And what we were finding is that, as Simon said, the employer wasn't seeing any direct benefit in it for themselves.

But if you actually just talk to the payroll team - the very people that you're trying to sell this on demand pay product to - very quickly you find out that they are really inundated with manual processes, and they spend their lives doing repetitive tasks. One of the biggest ones we found is payslips. So in the very early stages of this product idea, we came across a corporate that prints 18,000 payslips every single month, carrying them around the country to the various branches. And it just completely blew our minds that this was the case.

So here you had a market where we needed a little bit of cooperation from payroll in order to offer an on-demand pay product, but we had the ability to save payroll literally days of work every single month by taking those payslips and offering them on our exact same channel, which is via WhatsApp. And so what we found was that these two products were actually really complimentary, they could sit comfortably in one sale together.

So what I actually did was, I saw this potential for people who were underserved in a multitude of different ways to actually be empowered and take control of their own future through social impact businesses, which I think microfinance really comes under. And so what I started doing is leveraging my background in ERP solutions and tech platforms, and got involved in microfinance or banking tech platforms. And so it was really combining the two.

But what was really interesting was that, everywhere I went, despite the fact that countries were so different geographically and demographically, that I saw this underlying resilience and determination amongst people who just didn't have opportunities presented to them on a plate, and that given the right support, and the right tools at the right time that they could actually then forge their own futures, pretty much everywhere I was going, which was from Sierra Leone to Pakistan to Vietnam.

It's a risk, yes, but it's also a risk not to do it.

But when I started talking to other people and reaching out to other real estate platforms, there just wasn't a lot of information out there about private lending. Ironically enough, you know, Brandon Turner with BiggerPockets, his big thing was to go find a private lender to fund your deals. But then there wasn't any discussion on how to do that funding of the deal, which is why we ended up doing a book with bigger pockets, because there was that gap in the marketplace. And then also during COVID, the world shut down. You can't get together with people, you know, the RIA meetings that I had been attending, we're now posted on Zoom. But for anybody who's gone to a RIA meeting, you're not likely going to bump into somebody else who's also doing private lending. Because first off, you don't say that in public, because instantly you become the most popular person in the room and RIA meeting. So we kind of have to be a little bit of lurking happening there. But, you know, during COVID, not even that was happening. So I went out looking for community.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we really encourage those open discussions with our registered firms.

And in fact, we have some forums where we bring together registered and non-registered firms to discuss things like that. And I think one of the things I just want to be clear on, as a self-regulatory body (and from what I understand of regulation) is that no one really wants to stifle innovation, but I know that it can be really hard.

I think we're seeing some really good use of data and EMI and whenever we move to using algorithms to try and predict customer behaviour, etc.

And today, what we're seeing is we are able to serve as very simple institutions, we also able to serve financial institutions that are on the bleeding edge of financial services, what they refer to headless, so there's no branches, everything is online, and they're reaching their client base through mobile phones only. And their big need is about innovation and speed.

We've got a great foundation of what we built on by starting off, as we discussed, in Nigeria and the Philippines and so forth, but what we also see ourselves as managing to fill in the gap for a lot of forward looking institutions, those who are wanting to kind of leap frog and compete with fintechs, as well as fintechs themselves. How to deliver new services, how to take what over their clients are asking for and address it, both as a service as well as eventually going back into their products.

There's a great picture we have in the offices, although we're working in rural parts of Nigeria, there's a shot of our core banking system running in a Tesla.

The mobile wallets information I see, in a way, as a parallel option to Open Banking. It's really where somebody's having their financial transactions give us an indication of their income or their ability to spend, as well as some indication of the consistency of salary over time and the income. So I think what we've seen is combining that with the credit bureau data, you know, really provides a really strong indication of risk.

And we talked about the different data sources, some of the data sources we may not be holding within the the credit bureau, but what we're trying to do is actually facilitate so we can provide decision modules where we're bringing together that data that may be held by the telco or the bank in the mobile wallet and combining that with the credit bureau data so it's easier to use to generate those decisions for the lenders.

I had a conversation with the Mortgage Club yesterday and it's the same conversation. It's, you know, how do we make sure how do we bridge the gap between the innovation that we're bringing to the market versus what they know, and what their what their their fears could be based off of past products that have been a market. So really, it's it's right now. It's about communication. It's about patience. It's about empathy for us. And we want to make sure that we partner with these intermediaries because they provide the crucial advice to first time buyers who are vulnerable in this process. They've never bought a home before and the home buying process is to put it simply an absolute nightmare to go through. So a broker that can, you know, take a accurate financial snapshot for that customer, break down the process a bit for them, make them feel comfortable about them, you know, making the largest purchase their life is important for our customers. And that's why we want to make sure we partner with them.

But from our side of things, I think the main thing that we're seeing is however clever you want to be about it, however many propensity scores you want to use, however you want to segment your own collections portfolio and look to engage with people, if you're not able to contact that customer, it's going to be very difficult to get a good outcome for either you or for the customer themselves.

So because of those front-end online application journeys that we're capturing data from, and because of the recency - we're updating our full database - we already have a significant coverage of UK contact channel information, which we're able to help financial services firms get access to and to engage with their consumer, so they actually can get that conversation started. And they can try and get that resolution for them. But then if they if they can't have that first conversation, the rest of the clever stuff that they can do kind of goes out the window a little bit.

High level, I would say there are four elements of the lending process, and we started with one: which was how risky is it to lend Brendan a certain money? Like what's the likelihood of repayment or default, and then really allowing our lenders to specify, are they comfortable with that? How do they want to price it?

Increasingly, I think to the point you're making, we are also applying it to the second area we really focused on, how do I reduce friction in the process, right? We didn't start with this insight. This is kind of one of those you learn in the market. When we started, every borrower that our lenders were onboarding, we did a phone call, we asked for an ID to be uploaded to verify identity, that standard kind of KYC stuff that you do. And we had this insight, like, for the small loans, it costs too much money to get on the phone with people, maybe we could just use automated signals to do fraud prevention and not get on the phone, just for small loans, just for a few, to see what happens.

And so we tried it. And we saw this 2x to 3x increase in pull through and actually equal or positive credit performance. We went, 'oh, that's interesting, if I can take a certain amount of demand and turn it into twice as many loans, that's really valuable'. So we started the process of saying, can we use machine learning to get to a place where we're comfortable with more loans of larger sizes of longer durations that we can approve without that human intervention, because it both lowers the cost, but it reduces the friction.

And it turns out, consumers are not only rate sensitive on the loan side, they're also friction sensitive, they don't like putting in a lot of effort. So we are now at a place where our lenders see 70% of loans coming through the platform, having no touch origination - with ID verification, income verification done in automated ways, with very high NPS and very low cost and high conversions as a result of that.

So we can speak about Victoriabank, but first of all, it's important to understand the level of the banking system in the scale in in Moldova, because, as I mentioned, it is a small country - in terms of square meters and also in population - the GDP is around E11.5 billion, GDP per capita is E4,400, average salary is about E450 per month, with unemployment rate of 3.5% and the inflation rate, the official inflation rate, at this moment of time, it's around 22%. And to understand the banking system, it's 51% of the total GDP in Moldova. To understand the scale of that, Victoriabank in Romania alone, which is the biggest bank in Romania, is bigger than the combined banks in Moldova - but the competition is very tight and this affects the margins very, very dramatically.

There are 11 banks in Moldova, too many for this population.

Now coming back to Victoriabank, in 2018 Victoriabank was the third largest bank in Moldova. We are always proud of our history and about the innovation which were brought into Moldova by Victoriabank, since the moment it was established as a bank.

Mukesh Bubna 7:30

Sure. First of all, we've done a slight pivot and "led grow, borrow grow" we've changed that very recently, so it's not on our website, but we moved to "delivering financial happiness".

What does that mean? From an investor point of view, in India, the fixed deposit interest rates have plummeted in the last two years from 9% to 5%, while the inflation rate runs close to 6% officially (unofficially it runs much higher). And then there's a 35% tax on the interest income. So you can imagine anybody keeping money in a bank on a fixed deposit is losing money in India. So our proposition to them is risk adjusted yield - we should be able to give you 2x of fixed deposits. And that's happens, right? Your money is growing. And that's a good thing to happen for you.

We tell our consumers to diversify across at least 100 borrowers. Now, that gives them a comfort of ability to absorb any shock from delayed payment or delinquencies.

Second is that we also have certain innovation, what we have launched also is a monthly income plan. So if somebody brought somewhere around 5 million Indian rupees on our platform, we are able to give them an income of 50,000 rupees a month, which goes back to their account for their own need, whether they want to shop they will travel, whatever they feel like. No, it is not 50,000 like a fixed deposit system. It's an arrangement giving you a ballpark on our app. Investors can start investing in less than two minutes, and can fun transfer 24 by 7, I don't have any human intervention required anymore for any investor, individual institution to on board themselves.

Now on the show, we love a credit score and the Thai credit bureau score is one that I'm obviosuly very fond of, having helped roll it out initially a few years ago. But for those that are unfamiliar with the market, who are maybe in the US or the UK, is that a score that's going to be very familiar to them? that looks and operates like a score in a big developed market?

Marco Chu 15:30

It would feel pretty much the same. I mean, it is still a credit score, it gives you a number that tells you how risky that particular consumer is. Nothing has really changed in that aspect. But in the back, there's a lot of changes, different countries have different credit markets, and each is a little bit unique in their own way. I mean, for example, in the US, you will have vast amount of auto loans, because you need to have a car in the States versus in Singapore or Hong Kong where not everyone will have a car.

And so is Thailand, right? Thailand is, I would, say credit under-served. But considering the size of the adult population, and among people that actually have a credit history, you can expect that a lot of them don't have conventional consumer lending products we would imagine in developed countries. One thing that's very interesting that they have, and we recently included in the score is, agriculture loans. Thailand have a good part of the GDP in agriculture, and farming loans work differently compared to most consumer loans. And we simply need to add that to serve our credit inclusion mission.

When people look at your website, they're going to see the line "we provide repayable finance to help social enterprises" and for most of us, the first time we read that line, it's going to stick a little bit and people might be thinking why "repayable"? Why are you lending money to these charities, isn't it nicer to give a donation that doesn't have any strings attached?

Yeah, so lending has a few advantages over grant-giving in certain situations. What we're trying to do is to help organisations become better at doing what they do, becoming more efficient, so that either they can do things they weren't able to do before, or they can do them more efficiently - because they've been able to build some infrastructure, or expand into a new area, or possibly set up some trading activity which generates income, if that's what they're looking to achieve.

We try and fill a gap. It's very difficult to raise grant funding for anything that isn't directly related to a charity programme. Anything that has the word 'admin' in it is the anathema to many philanthropists. And that's where we come in, because we believe that a well run organisation needs opex, it needs capex.

And slowly and slowly, I think I always had that entrepreneur bug in me and that's what kept pushing me towards fintechs. And I think Revolut really put the gas on the fire and said, go and do it. Because you're surrounded by so highly aspirational people. So the story is still the same, which is I want to help people who want to build their credit, not just in the UK, but in any country.

And validation came actually at Revolut as well. When I was head of lending for both UK the US and I was scratching my head, trying to join up the data from the UK in the US. I met the bureaus, which you are from - not TransUnion, but one of the bureaus - and I tried to force them into a single contract. Why doesn't the credit bureau in the US speak to the credit bureau in the UK and give me a single contract, because it's the same consumer?

They wouldn't. They would like to sulking sisters, they don't want to see eye to eye.

So even if that exists, it's very hard to get women to complain. And often the complaint process puts the person that complains, the woman, in the limelight, or investigates the complaint in an insensitive way. And so there is, you know, there is all incentive to stay quiet and just stop using the service. And that's a problem, because what we need to see is actually greater use of the service. And that then leading to better life outcomes in some way.

So there's a lot that needs to be done by policymakers and regulators in creating easier complaint processes to check if the information that's being asked for by lenders is necessary and proportionate to the services that they provide. So does the lending app really need access to my phone messages or phone gallery or call records? And if you are accessing that information, then how you're going to use it, which then leads us to think about data rights. So there's a lot that needs to be done, you know, in unpacking, what does the safe and secure online environment mean? And how do we create that?