So if you were to think of some of these African countries and then go into Rwanda, you will understand that the credit growth and maturity is fairly new outside of South Africa, most of these African countries had predominantly been cash-driven markets, it's not to say there wouldn't have been a form of lending or products that would have been there. But if you think of the South African credit market or maturity curve, you know, retail, for instance, people go and buy clothes on credit, you have never seen that in any of the African markets, they get a shock to hear that you buy clothes on credit. So there's still a lot of whitespace, there's still a lot of opportunities for better products to come into play. So personal loans have predominantly been the default lending product that we've seen in the market across all the financial institutions in Rwanda.

But now mortgage, your typical mortgage, right? It's starting to emerge as a product, that historically people would probably just get a personal loan and go buy a plot of land and try to, you know, use their own income to build a house for themselves. What you have started to see off the lead is vehicle financing starting to come up in Rwanda. I'm not sure how close you are to the VW project that kicked off, I think, a couple of years back where they had a factory and wonder and assembling factory and wonder, because outside of South Africa, maybe with the exception of Botswana and Namibia, most of these countries do a lot of great imports. Right? So you find a lot of Japanese cars out here, right? So with that said, vehicle finance, the process of it has been much of a challenge because the bank doesn't know the vehicle, they're financing, they don't have confidence on the quality of the vehicle, right?

So that's why we work with Airtel to say, let's bridge this gap. Let's try to be the boundary between the lenders and the borrowers. And the only way you can do that is having standardised credit score.

So Airtel provides all the transactions when you buy airtime on your phone, when you buy data, pay a bill, you know, that information tells us probably you have some responsibility in your house, you're moving around, probably you have some kind of mobility, are you having so many people different one sending to you, tells you you're making sales.

But if you're just receiving from one person, we can can infer probably your law student getting some update from the parents.

And where I found that problem statement, that focus, was actually when I started working with community finance lenders, specifically, an experienced that really exposed the problem, to me that exists within consumer lending. And that is that very little is given to the customer management side of the credit lifecycle.

And I've had the opportunity to sit within the community finance lenders office, I mean, this was right on the front line. And I remember there was a lady that came in, and she had lots of children with a, she was stressed because she was in arrears. And she come into this lending office to arrange an arrangement with the lender to ensure that she could stay on track with her payments. And I just sat there observing, and she sat there and she was getting more and more stressed, as the advisor was saying, Well, can you afford this much a week? Can you afford this much a week, and having the awareness as to all the data behind the lending decision, and everything that they had about it, I just felt like, there's got to be a better way to engage this customer and use this information to help her make sounder financial choices.

That was my lightbulb moment.

That's why you're hear 'the problem is the deposits', but people don’t need to have to high deposit. Not really, because they only need a high deposit, because you can't lend them enough, because you put all the risks to them. You know, if you change your product into a long dated fixed, you protect the borrower, you can lend a higher amount, they need less of a deposit. Right? It all depends on how you explain things.

And this is what other countries have done for a long, long time: Denmark for over 200 years, the Netherlands for 40/ 50/ 60 years, the US obviously, after the savings and loans crisis, they started protecting borrowers by making long dated fixed rate mortgages the 'cool product', and that protected them over the crisis against these shocks. And that in turn, helps the economy.

I agree, I think is a game changer.

And I think what's interesting as we as we looked at the financial inclusion score more we realised how important lifestyle was as well as behaviour. And that sort of led us down to something were developing to the moment which is really based on geographical havior and customer blueprints for more targeted marketing strategies, we derive a lot of this information directly from the mobile, someone's behaviour on that phone and their choices and their lifestyle patterns and gleaning all that information from the mobile, which is all anonymized data at one point.

It's still dominated by your credit card issuers.

So most people if they have Apple Pay or Google Pay, they have loaded their credit card and that's probably the most popular form of payments, but these QR payment providers who have their own mobile apps is very, very popular. And it's accepted everywhere. And while they still represent a very small share in terms of total purchase volumes, they are by far the fastest growing, and that is why issuers are very, very concerned.

And these QR payment providers are also going into that credit space, where they're offering a small credit of maybe $500 to $1,000. But they're using very basic information - just your name, phone number, email - so it's much, much faster and easier to apply for that new QR payment credit versus a traditional credit card.

First of all, most of the brick and mortar banks just don't understand, at a granular view, which products and which segments are really making them money.

In general, they can tell us, sure, but they have a lot of different customer segments, right, different products and sometimes they struggle to understand where they need to adjust.

So in this sense, our advanced analytics is helping banks to understand how does existing products work, and then give a different insight and basically all of these just allow them to be more agile, and to run business in the more well controlled and data driven way.

"I don't understand why I have to take credit out to get credit. Why don't you just look at my bank statement, you can see how I'm behaving?"

Well, that's great. That's exactly what we do. At Direct ID we focus on categorising transactions that have particular interest risk decision makers.

So what we were able to do is to bridge the gap from unsupervised learning, where we don't have any labels, to supervised learning, where we do have a label.

There is an adversarial goal here: if you increase the limit, you have a potential profit from the person using the credit limit but you have a very real immediate hit to your provisions.

So now we needed some sort of modelling that didn't just give us whether to increase or not, but which would also give us the optimal value of that increase. We don't just give you a limit increase, we give you the one that minimises the value at risk and also the one that has, in terms of expected value, a profitable margin.

And that was a big, big shift, right? Because all alternative lending platforms were profitable, when rates were at zero, they started to go up, most of them are going past. The reason I think that we are noticed. And obviously we didn't do this, anticipating that this was going to happen. But rather, it was just our strategic focus at the time, we decided to cover the full spectrum of working capital of our clients, right?

So we started as, hey, we get cheap money, we lend it digitally to clients. But then as we interacted with those clients, and we recognise that they had a broad range of needs, we decided to cover the whole spectrum. So we moved from, hey, how can I give you money, to how can I simplify your operations through money, right? And how can I make your financial operation simpler, smoother and more effective and efficient through money

So what is driving the default of an SME on a loan? We focused on three potential drivers: the firm's resources, board level factors, and the loan attributes.

I don't want to bore people going through all the variables that we considered but we have three categories of variables and within the categories we have a bunch of other variables. So what we found basically is the following an increased amount of financial resources and increased size of the board and a longer board's tenure, all these three elements are decreasing the default rate of firms. This is quite reasonable, right?

The size of the board is maybe a bit less intuitive. We are talking about the board size, we're not talking about the firm's size, which plays an extremely important role. But our focus was on the board size wich speaks to corporate governance being important there is a debate about corporate governance, many people make it more complex, but that is helping sharing the responsibility. So you may come a sounder, maybe a more bulletproof decision.

More than 50% of the economic activity is informal in Latin America, and so, because of that, they don't have access to capital for growing their businesses.

And what we are trying to do is to help out to Yeah, to make it a little bit more fair for economic growth for everybody.

Obviously, you can do it with a pen and paper, but you know, I can say from experience, or at least the experience that we have, that doing it manually really doesn't work! And so really our scoring, what we are building, is to try to analyse the informal business.

But people now aren't banking where their parents banked. So there's a whole lot of more agile'ness around money movement.

That's why a lot of influencers in this financial space have had such a great rise to fame: what it allows you to do is get very specific content right in the hands of the people who need it at the time that they're looking for it.

For the big enterprise financial institutions, this is anywhere between 35% and 45% of their acquisition funnel - if I'm going to get a new mortgage, or if I'm going to get a new business loan, I'm telling you, I'm going to research it.

We don't like to say it's a small country actually, and we just held the NATO summit in Vilnius in July, so we had a very nice ad: Lithuania is not a small country, it's a big country compacted to your convenience!

That's Lithuania. It's not a relatively small country: it's extremely compact. It's easy to reach, it's pretty much all in one place. It's great work life balance. And that's why Lithuania is feeling kind of Renaissance for re-immigration.

Well, the Lithuanian GDP, if compared to 2000 it has grown five times, if compared to 1995 it has grown 8.6 times. So it was really, really expanding.

And these fraudsters will keep coming at you. And they will get faster and wiser and smarter. But to be honest, I didn't know all the things that could have happened to me until actually I'd experienced them. So it's a massive warning to anyone, you know, whether you're a consumer or a business person, or you have a business and you own a business, or you've got a business partnership, or whatever it is, just make sure you're vigilant about everything.

Don't think that you know somebody, because you might not know them as well. You know, fraud, fraudsters can have lots of different faces and guises. It might be a stranger, like your podcast, but it also might be somebody that you know, so just be really, really careful out there. Reputations take years to build up and it takes a second to destroy.

Okay, so I knew that if Nigeria was going to grow and the middle class was going to emerge, there has to be a credit culture, right?

And I knew that one person wouldn't be able to do it. One lender wouldn't be able to do it.

Because when you look at Nigeria and look at why credit doesn't work, you need to understand that is a lack of consequences that killed credit. In Nigeria today, if you took money, and you don't pay it back afterwards, nothing happens to you. Now, one of the things that Lendsqr is doing is that, by having a technology driven consequences, then that problem is going to go away.

I worked my way, literally, through elementary school and through high school. In high school, I caught a break, I was on my way to buy a Slurpee, like maybe 12 years old, and a guy dropped something on the street, and I went and picked it up for him and put it on the back of a truck. And they're like, Hey, why don't you help us load this truck. I said, sure, I got nothing going on. And I just loaded a truck with them. And then like an hour later, they said, Well, hey, kid, why don't you come deliver the truck with us. And I said sure.

Now remember, this is time where parents didn't worry about their kids. It was relatively safe. I'm a 12 year old getting into a truck. We drove to Westchester unloaded the truck. I get back four hours later. And the guy says What are you doing tomorrow? I'm like, I don't have school tomorrow. He goes, we'll be here at four o'clock in the morning and you can work.

And I worked every minute of my life through high school.

Distressed property - maybe it’s dated on the inside with bad cabinets - can always be repaired, not distressed people. And so we focus on distressed properties, not distressed people. And that platform has worked very, very well for us.

So going live with Taktile is, I would say, very smooth and can happen rapidly.

Once we sign a customer, our customer success team provides training and support for the platform. However, many of our customers prefer to just building and figuring it out on their own on the platform.

On the other hand, on top of the software, we also have customers to identify the right data providers for their use case and for that customer segment. And we do share best practices from our experiences in the industry. By now we've seen so many products and use cases that we can tell you if you want to launch a lending product in the UK. For that type of segment, I think we have a very good idea of what are the possibilities out there of data source that you can actually use in the end.

All it takes is one bad egg to throw a business off, especially in what we're doing where it's small startups and scale ups - the impact that that person has is so broad that when it goes well, it's such a great feeling, but equally, if it goes the wrong way, and you hire the wrong person, they don't fit into your company values, your ethos, your approach to how you work, the effect goes just as much the other way.

It's not just around here's the CVs and putting bums on seats. For us. It's really about embedding ourselves in the business.

There's definitely this talent shortage. But I think there's a lot of people trying out new markets, a lot of movers and shakers, you know, you've got a global workforce, you can have people in Asia, in Africa or in North America, we're not speaking to people and saying if you can double my salary, I'll go there is people saying I need to have remote working, I need to spend more time my families and that purpose.